Estate and inheritance (possibly stolen) - What to do?

Estate and inheritance (possibly stolen) - What to do?

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oxcode

Original Poster:

81 posts

23 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
A long story that I will try and summarise as short as possible.

Father-in-law was diagnosed with dementia around 3 years ago. He is still compos mentis but of course over time, his condition will only deterioate. He has quite a sizeable estate that consists of a mixture of a running business, multiple properties, a huge shares portfolio and sizeable cash reserves.

During Covid my wife found out that her only sibling (brother) had taken a lasting power of attorney and took over everything - the business and the income that is generated from it, the investment properties and the income that is generated from that, he had (in her father's own words) liquidated the shares (we are talking about a very substantial sum) and between him and his wife, has access to all of the father's bank accounts.

My wife - who lives an hour away from both the parents and brother - has not been given a penny. Wife has approached the parents but they feel vulnerable - they go quiet when she raises the subject - usually the mother says "I just don't want no trouble". Father is a bit more animated and feels things he has just been stripped of everything. When we ask him what he will do, he goes quiet.

To my knowledge there is a will but it is old and needs renewing. However that to me is not the immediate problem.

The problem is the brother is now buying VERY expensive cars for both him and his wife, high-end designer clothes which they never wore before, going on 4-5 holidays a year, buying further investment properties in the wifes name, the wife has stopped working her normal job and they have brought in staff to run the family business (they provide some oversight and cover as and when). In addition, their personalities have completely changed. They are ignoring my wife, they barely even call (let alone visit our kids), when we go to visit the parents they stay away. They were never like that 3-4 years ago - it seems to me the greed and money have consumed them, sadly.

We get bits of information but being away from it all, we don't get to see what happens day to day and certainly how they are spending the estate. The assets above are what we know - there is almost certainly more - my wife had very little direct involvement in any of the financial affairs over the years, so knows very little.

Of course they can buy whatever they like and spend their share of the estate however they feel - however I fundamentally believe in fairness. I see how much it has affected my wife. Fairness in how her parents are looked after and fairness when it comes to distributing the estate. The father also agrees that the estate needs to be divided equally but feels powerless now to do anything.

Clearly we need to seek legal advice on this but I am just wondering if anyone has gone through anything similar and can offer any advice? We have never sought legal help for anything in our life so that in itself is quite daunting. Any recommendations for a good family law firm?

akirk

5,454 posts

117 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
A power of attorney of person X's affairs gives you access in order to use the finances belonging to X for the benefit of X
Any other use is likely to get you into trouble - it doesn't give you access to the finances for your own benefit...

Lawyer
Legal letter to BIL
remind him of the conditions of Power of Attorney
get him to sell the cars etc. and return the asset value - probably holidays etc. are now lost funds unless he has other funds to repay them...
get FIL to rescind POA

pork911

7,365 posts

186 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
Terrible situation.

Clearly legal advice needed asap.

Likely the lasting power of attorney will aid here as it imposes obligations of acting in his best interests that aren't there and just receiving gifts.

Best of luck.

oddman

2,450 posts

255 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
Report your concern to the Office of the Public Guardian

The donee of an LPA must act in the individuals best interests. Try to think of this as theft from your father in law not your spouse's inheritance - keep the moral high ground.

It sounds like they've been stupidly greedy and had they been more discreet could have had a even more away without you realising it.

It's enormously frustrating that a power designed to protect and support the elderly is used by criminals to fleece them to a degree which probably dwarfs all other forms of scamming and financial abuse of the elderly.

The scale of what is going on here warrants criminal investigation IMO - alongside the referral to the OPG you could make a safeguarding concern with police/social services

My wife manages her parents business affairs through an LPA spending 2 and a half days a week on it and doesn't even claim her diesel FFS

RickRolled

339 posts

180 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
Similar thing happened to someone I know. Don't knot all the details but one of the relatives was stealing money from the elderly parent because they had the POA and other family members weren't aware.

All ended up in court and I believe the she got a jail sentence, although possibly suspended.

dundarach

5,174 posts

231 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
I was a Court of Protection appointed guardian for my mum for 10 years, managing all the finances.

(I did not have health responsibilities, only money)

As such I was 'audited' annually to check what I'd spent money on. However the auditor did point out I could 'gift' myself money, so long as it was properly accounted for.

Therefore before you go off pitchforks in hand, you really do need thorough and completed advice and a clear understanding of what 'powers' your brother in law has.

He might be keeping detailed logs, including what he's spent on himself from the estate.

He might have been given the legal right to spend his half now - no idea, not my experience.

You really do need to talk to him and a solicitor and understand what's going on.

No one on here should advise anything more.

Andy 308GTB

2,946 posts

224 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
oddman said:
Report your concern to the Office of the Public Guardian
This.

It's theft.




lizardbrain

2,178 posts

40 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
dundarach said:
I was a Court of Protection appointed guardian for my mum for 10 years, managing all the finances.

(I did not have health responsibilities, only money)

As such I was 'audited' annually to check what I'd spent money on. However the auditor did point out I could 'gift' myself money, so long as it was properly accounted for.

Therefore before you go off pitchforks in hand, you really do need thorough and completed advice and a clear understanding of what 'powers' your brother in law has.

He might be keeping detailed logs, including what he's spent on himself from the estate.

He might have been given the legal right to spend his half now - no idea, not my experience.

You really do need to talk to him and a solicitor and understand what's going on.

No one on here should advise anything more.
When I asked I was told gifts need to be modest and have a historical pattern.

Can you clarify/expand by any chance?

oddman

2,450 posts

255 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
dundarach said:
I was a Court of Protection appointed guardian for my mum for 10 years, managing all the finances.

(I did not have health responsibilities, only money)

As such I was 'audited' annually to check what I'd spent money on. However the auditor did point out I could 'gift' myself money, so long as it was properly accounted for.

Therefore before you go off pitchforks in hand, you really do need thorough and completed advice and a clear understanding of what 'powers' your brother in law has.

He might be keeping detailed logs, including what he's spent on himself from the estate.

He might have been given the legal right to spend his half now - no idea, not my experience.

You really do need to talk to him and a solicitor and understand what's going on.

No one on here should advise anything more.
Gifts are allowable but they need to be consistent with the wishes and feelings of the donor.

You were clearly operating under close supervision of the Court. LPAs are like the wild west with virtually no oversight

oxcode said:
During Covid my wife found out that her only sibling (brother) had taken a lasting power of attorney and took over everything - the business and the income that is generated from it, the investment properties and the income that is generated from that, he had (in her father's own words) liquidated the shares (we are talking about a very substantial sum) and between him and his wife, has access to all of the father's bank accounts.

My wife - who lives an hour away from both the parents and brother - has not been given a penny. Wife has approached the parents but they feel vulnerable - they go quiet when she raises the subject - usually the mother says "I just don't want no trouble". Father is a bit more animated and feels things he has just been stripped of everything. When we ask him what he will do, he goes quiet.
I can almost guarantee that this situation has not been overseen and that this elderly couple have been groomed. The reason the brother's attitude has changed and can't look the OP and his wife in the eye is not becuase the money has turned him into someone else, it's becuase of what he had to say and do to get the money.

What is really distressing for elderly people being abused in this way is the manipualtion and stress they are placed under to hand over control and the guilt they feel when the mess is uncovered.

It would be helpful to have as much information before referring to the OPG but on the strength of what he's posted I think they would investigate.



dundarach

5,174 posts

231 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
oddman said:
dundarach said:
I was a Court of Protection appointed guardian for my mum for 10 years, managing all the finances.

(I did not have health responsibilities, only money)

As such I was 'audited' annually to check what I'd spent money on. However the auditor did point out I could 'gift' myself money, so long as it was properly accounted for.

Therefore before you go off pitchforks in hand, you really do need thorough and completed advice and a clear understanding of what 'powers' your brother in law has.

He might be keeping detailed logs, including what he's spent on himself from the estate.

He might have been given the legal right to spend his half now - no idea, not my experience.

You really do need to talk to him and a solicitor and understand what's going on.

No one on here should advise anything more.
Gifts are allowable but they need to be consistent with the wishes and feelings of the donor.

You were clearly operating under close supervision of the Court. LPAs are like the wild west with virtually no oversight

oxcode said:
During Covid my wife found out that her only sibling (brother) had taken a lasting power of attorney and took over everything - the business and the income that is generated from it, the investment properties and the income that is generated from that, he had (in her father's own words) liquidated the shares (we are talking about a very substantial sum) and between him and his wife, has access to all of the father's bank accounts.

My wife - who lives an hour away from both the parents and brother - has not been given a penny. Wife has approached the parents but they feel vulnerable - they go quiet when she raises the subject - usually the mother says "I just don't want no trouble". Father is a bit more animated and feels things he has just been stripped of everything. When we ask him what he will do, he goes quiet.
I can almost guarantee that this situation has not been overseen and that this elderly couple have been groomed. The reason the brother's attitude has changed and can't look the OP and his wife in the eye is not becuase the money has turned him into someone else, it's becuase of what he had to say and do to get the money.

What is really distressing for elderly people being abused in this way is the manipualtion and stress they are placed under to hand over control and the guilt they feel when the mess is uncovered.

It would be helpful to have as much information before referring to the OPG but on the strength of what he's posted I think they would investigate.
Yes as above.

The line "Gifts are allowable but they need to be consistent with the wishes and feelings of the donor." was used a few times. They seemed happy however with the idea of £1000 a month being okay! Which to me seemed ridiculous.

I've no experience of managing a business running sized estate, mum was semi-detached coppers widow sized! However perhaps brother in law is believing he's acting within these guidelines.

How much are we talking, £50k from an estate worth £2m, or £200k from one worth £0.5m.

Take professional advice, people have posted links on here already!


oddman

2,450 posts

255 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
In re the advice that the OP gets father in law to rescind the LPA. and the hint that OP trying to get the will changed to redress the balance.

The difficulty with this approach is that it is likely to cause further stress for your in laws and suggests you are more interested in restoring 'fairness' as you put it than the welfare and wishes and feelings of the in laws.

I would advise very strongly against fighting fire with fire. By all means get independent legal advice. Involve the OPG but don't try and settle this with a botch.

Moral high ground - let the professionals do your fighting for you.

alscar

4,502 posts

216 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
"The problem is the brother is now buying VERY expensive cars for both him and his wife, high-end designer clothes which they never wore before, going on 4-5 holidays a year, buying further investment properties in the wifes name..."

Not sure how under an LPA ( where you always have to act in the interests of the donor at all times ) this isn't anything other than just totally wrong and certainly worth speaking urgently to either the OPG or indeed a neutral Solicitor.
When I assumed LPA responsibilities for a relative it was made very clear to me that keeping a log doesn't justify the spending especially if new cars and clothes don't appear to be helping the donor one iota.
I would also be doing this sooner rather than later and Im not sure if I would even attempt talking to you wife's brother first either.


Funk

26,401 posts

212 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
alscar said:
"The problem is the brother is now buying VERY expensive cars for both him and his wife, high-end designer clothes which they never wore before, going on 4-5 holidays a year, buying further investment properties in the wifes name..."

Not sure how under an LPA ( where you always have to act in the interests of the donor at all times ) this isn't anything other than just totally wrong and certainly worth speaking urgently to either the OPG or indeed a neutral Solicitor.
When I assumed LPA responsibilities for a relative it was made very clear to me that keeping a log doesn't justify the spending especially if new cars and clothes don't appear to be helping the donor one iota.
I would also be doing this sooner rather than later and Im not sure if I would even attempt talking to you wife's brother first either.
Agreed, per the link posted by oddman above I'd be logging 'concern' as that page puts it that LPA is being abused. I wouldn't give the guy and his wife a heads-up that they might be getting investigated lest they try and alter or hide things.

Largechris

2,019 posts

94 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
I don't know anything about the process, but I would think photos of the cars at their house, evidence of the holidays, clothes etc. would be sensible in making it clear to the authorities who is benefiting from the estate.

alscar

4,502 posts

216 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
Just completing the online form that Oddman helpfully supplied the link too ( I would also email separately the OPG with a cut and paste version just in case ) should suffice without alerting the brother to enthusiastic taking of photographs from the bushes.
In any event photos of cars on a drive prove nothing in terms of taking money not entitled to - once the OPG starts to investigate the brother will need to prove the source of any spending which could be interesting !

oxcode

Original Poster:

81 posts

23 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
Thank you - some solid advice here. A lot of what has been said is what we've felt for a long time, so it is reassuring to know what has been said, is exactly how we've been feeling - it is very easy to doubt yourself especially when you've known someone (the BIL) for over around 10 years and was a decent guy. Elder abuse, grooming over time, making them feel vulnerable and dependent - all on display.

Bottom line - sounds like we will proceed on getting legal advice and the need to report to the OPG (which I will do after getting legal advice).

Just a point about fairness - which I think was a good one from a post above. Three years ago this was never about the money or the estate. Like most people, we assumed things would be divided up fairly when the time arrived. However seeing the spending that has been going on and which happens even more discreetly now than before, it had become about fairness for my wife and children's future. However, this whole process should be ensuring the father is looked after (which has always been the intention) and no further underhand tactics at play.

Also it's very difficult for either myself or wife to really find out what has been going on... very little information is given to us (obviously) by the BIL or his wife, we are simply told "we're handling it" when we dare to ask what's going on and the parents stay silent. One thing my wife and I have been talking about for a while is actually to go and confront the BIL and his wife - in front of the parents. We've ummed and arghed about for a while - good idea or not a good idea? From above, it looks like leave it to the professionals... but not sure if asking some hard questions directly is worthwhile, if only to get more infomation?

I need to do a bit more research into the OPG and the role it plays - but can anyone recommend where to find a good family law firm? Need to do a bit of research here also.

alscar

4,502 posts

216 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
Just quickly googled and this might demonstrate the potential downside...

A lasting power of attorney or enduring power of attorney is legal document used to protect the maker (“the donor”) whereby they entrust a third party to act on their behalf in the event that they lose mental capacity. Cases where there has been abuse of a power of attorney sometimes don’t come to light until the donor passes away and will sometimes be considered in the context of a contentious probate dispute. In some cases, abuse of a power of attorney will also result in criminal prosecution.

In a recent case reported in the press, it was found that a daughter had stolen over £80,000 from her mother who suffered with dementia over a period of 10 years. The daughter had a lasting power of attorney over her mother which meant she was in charge of her mother’s financial and property matters. She attempted to argue that it was not a case of coercion and that her mother had allowed her to take the money.

The court disagreed and sentenced her to 2 years in prison for her dishonesty. Judge Bate concluded that the daughter had “perpetuated over a number of years a sustained, dishonest breach of trust and treated her mother’s bank account as [her] own to spend on [herself]”.

P1ato

345 posts

131 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
I went through this a few years ago with my older brother.
He moved into my mother's house, got her to gift ownership to him.
Got details of all her bank accounts and cleared them out as soon as she went into a hospice.

Fortunately my mother was financially savvy, and got her will amended to leave everything to us equally with any gifts given to my brother being brought into account.

As an executor I was able to get information on the gifts and copies of all bank statements, and then prepare beneficiary accounts.

My brother insisted that I pay the IHT, despite the fact everything was in his control.
At the one meeting we had at my mother's lawyers office he pretended he was very wealthy and would pay out my share after probate.
When that time came he said he refused to discuss money, and we'd misunderstood what he'd said.
He also refused to give us access to "his" house, so we have no family photos or other stuff.
Fortunately my mother gave my daughters memory boxes before she died.

Like the OP my brother seemed to change completely at the prospect of having money. He was always a bit odd / autistic but became obsessed with his own financial security. For the last week of my mother's life he was in Paris getting engaged to his next door neighbour. Her recent divorce settlement and his pending inheritance suddenly made them much more attractive to each other.

Unfortunately we no longer bother speaking, so this stuff can really break up families.

oxcode

Original Poster:

81 posts

23 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
alscar said:
Just quickly googled and this might demonstrate the potential downside...

A lasting power of attorney or enduring power of attorney is legal document used to protect the maker (“the donor”) whereby they entrust a third party to act on their behalf in the event that they lose mental capacity. Cases where there has been abuse of a power of attorney sometimes don’t come to light until the donor passes away and will sometimes be considered in the context of a contentious probate dispute. In some cases, abuse of a power of attorney will also result in criminal prosecution.

In a recent case reported in the press, it was found that a daughter had stolen over £80,000 from her mother who suffered with dementia over a period of 10 years. The daughter had a lasting power of attorney over her mother which meant she was in charge of her mother’s financial and property matters. She attempted to argue that it was not a case of coercion and that her mother had allowed her to take the money.

The court disagreed and sentenced her to 2 years in prison for her dishonesty. Judge Bate concluded that the daughter had “perpetuated over a number of years a sustained, dishonest breach of trust and treated her mother’s bank account as [her] own to spend on [herself]”.
And that is also part of the issue here. Emotional attachment (naturally) for a sister towards her brother. I know it isn't two way in this case - it feels like the brother has almost erased her by ignoring her and the kids. But she still loves him despite every thing and criminal prosecution is a line that will need a LOT of thought - although we have discussed it and see it as an eventuality.

bigandclever

13,864 posts

241 months

Monday 15th August 2022
quotequote all
oxcode said:
criminal prosecution is a line that will need a LOT of thought
(from a position of complete ignorance) Once you get 'the authorities' involved isn't that decision out of your hands?